IJA dues reduced thru Dec 26, win rewards: membership drive

[Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu]

We are happy to inform you about the 2013 IJA Membership Drive that's
happening now through December 26. Membership prices are discounted,
and you can even win a 2014 IJA Festival Event Package or other
rewards.

Check out our new promotional video showing the benefits of being an
IJA member and a few things about the IJA you may not know. You can
help the IJA by sharing this video with fellow jugglers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbBofEAh1Qo


IJA Membership Drive 2013

Save $5 off regular prices for IJA membership when you use the IJA
Store to join or renew by December 26th. New and renewing members
will also be entered into two IJA raffles (see raffle prizes below).

Adults now $24.00
Youths now $19.00
http://www.juggle.org/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Whether or not you join or renew, if you get enough friends to become
NEW IJA members during the drive, you could win a 2014 IJA Festival
Package! (See Recruitment Rewards below. The NEW members you recruit
must never have been IJA members before, in order to count towards your
reward.)

Raffle Prizes:

2014 IJA Festival Package!!
Signed Anthony Gatto Playing Card!
Juggling Ring signed by the cast of the 2012 IJA Cascade of Stars Show
(Cie Ea Eo, Freddy Kenton, Doug Sayers, Pavel Evsukevich, ...)
Bronze Juggling Club Pendant! (Donated by David Kha)
IJA T-Shirt!
And more!


Recruitment Reward Program Runs Through December 26th

When you get NEW members to join the IJA during the membership drive,
have them enter your name in the "Recruited by..." field when filling
out their membership info in the IJA Store. You can win a reward
based on the number of new members you recruit.

Rewards:
5 memberships = T-Shirt
10 memberships= T-Shirt + 1 Year Membership
25 memberships= T-Shirt + 1 Year Membership + Festival Package
100 memberships = T-Shirt + Festival Package+Lifetime Membership


The Raffles take place December 21st & 28th. For updates on the
Membership Drive, check the IJA Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/InternationalJugglersAssociation


Thank you for your continued support of the IJA and the
juggling community.

Martin Frost and Kyle Johnson, IJA

[Dave]

> Check out our new promotional video showing the benefits of being an
> IJA member and a few things about the IJA you may not know. You can
> help the IJA by sharing this video with fellow jugglers!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbBofEAh1Qo

I would like point out that IMHO the IJA is putting out more
mis-information in this video, and I still don't think anyone should
support the IJA for ethical reasons.

--

This video starts out saying, "What does an IJA membership do? It helps
the IJA Teach Kids with the Youth Education Program (YEP)"

I don't believe this is true. As near as I can tell not a single dollar
of IJA membership has ever been spent on YEP. Instead YEP is fully funded
by iiWii (a generous anonymous donor). Furthermore I think it is
debatable whether iiWii's funds are really being used to promote youth
juggling. The IJA keeps secret where iiWii's YEP funds are spent, but
from rumors it all tends to go either to IJA board members, or to friends
of IJA board members (possibly in exchange for other considerations). I'd
like the IJA to give a full report of where these funds have been spent.

I'm not saying that no IJA member has ever helped teach kids to juggle. I
think most jugglers do it often. Our local club has been helping several
groups. The big difference is that we don't charge iiWii $500 when we
help kids learn to juggle. Frankly my suspicion is that the IJA has been
abusing iiWii's generosity, but I invite them to prove me wrong.

--

The video's next point is that the IJA "Gives props to juggling programs
worldwide with the props 2 U program".

Again this seems to be a distortion of the facts. I don't believe a
single membership dollar has gone to buying props to be given away
worldwide. In fairness there are IJA members who have given away their
old props. The IJA probably had a role in helping get the props to the
destination. But I suspect very little, if any, money was spent on this.
Again I invite the IJA to disclose how much has been spent on this "reason
to join" over the past 5 years.


The video then claims vendor discounts as a reason for joining. It is
true that there are some vendor discounts offered (usually about 10%). It
is also true that you can generally get the same discount without joining
the IJA. Regardless, you would need to buy a lot of props to "save"
enough to pay for your IJA membership. (and if you are buying a lot, I
can practically guarantee they will give you a discount regardless.)

--

The IJA promotional video then concludes saying the IJA has videos and a
festival.

These claims are true, but not very impressive. If people want juggling
videos, look here:
http://jugglejunction.org/newVids.php?mode=recommended
They are free, and often better than the IJA videos. I'll bet there are
more good videos for free than you can watch.

As for the IJA festival, it is IMHO mostly dead, or a least a fraction of
what it used to be. Attendance has dropped such that it now is no longer
a "major festival". Granted, still fun, but overpriced and a bit elitist
and likely to stay that way. I think anyone who doesn't mind paying a bit
for a festival should consider EJC in Ireland. Much bigger/better
festival (in most people's opinion) and it is likely to be cheaper too
(even for people in USA).

--

Disclaimer: For anyone who doesn't know it, I was expelled from the IJA
years ago for pointing out mismanagement and distortions by IJA leaders.
Prior to that I was twice the board chairman. The membership subsequently
voted to overturn this expulsion, but every IJA board since has failed to
honor the membership's vote, the current leadership seems to not be an
exception, and thus I still question the IJA leaderships ethics. (See the
games played in choosing a festival director for next year)

--Dave




--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[thegoheads]

Dave wrote:
> (stuff about the IJA)


Oh cool, we're doing this again?


If what you say is true, then the IJA board members are embezzling money
or just giving it to their friends or whatever.... so what? Isn't
everybody else in the world doing that too? Shit, I need to find a way to
do that... working job after job sure isn't cutting it.

What are you hoping to accomplish here?!? Surely there are worse things in
the world than the IJA, eh? If you were wronged so badly and already
beaten by the lawyers, nothing short of dishing out a good old fashoined
ass-kicking will make you feel any different, just my 2 cents...

-Steve

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[thegoheads]

Oh cool, we're doing this again?


If what you say is true, then the IJA board members are embezzling money
or just giving it to their friends or whatever.... so what? Isn't
everybody else in the world doing that too? Shit, I need to find a way to
do that... working job after job sure isn't cutting it.

What are you hoping to accomplish here?!? Surely there are worse things in
the world than the IJA, eh? If you were wronged so badly and already
beaten by the lawyers, nothing short of dishing out a good old fashoined
ass-kicking will make you feel any different, just my 2 cents...

-Steve

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[thegoheads]

thegoheads wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> > (stuff about the IJA)
>
>
> Oh cool, we're doing this again?
>
>
> If what you say is true, then the IJA board members are embezzling money
> or just giving it to their friends or whatever.... so what? Isn't
> everybody else in the world doing that too? Shit, I need to find a way to
> do that... working job after job sure isn't cutting it.
>
> What are you hoping to accomplish here?!? Surely there are worse things in
> the world than the IJA, eh? If you were wronged so badly and already
> beaten by the lawyers, nothing short of dishing out a good old fashoined
> ass-kicking will make you feel any different, just my 2 cents...
>
> -Steve
>

Whoa, triple post! Alright! I only tried twice, must be my lucky day :)

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[JJ Conductor]

CamStradeski wrote:
> Oh shit, didn't you guys know, the IJA are a community of Illuminati
> sympathizing shape- shifting lizards trying to exploit the lucrative juggling
> community for the billions of dollars they make each month. . . RUN FOR THE
> HILLS!!!!11!!1!1

I probably shouldn't reply to a troll, but I will. The argument you
appear to be making is that the IJA is small. I'm assuming that you were
being sarcastic with the Illuminati and lizards stuff. I'll grant your
point that the IJA is small, but so what?

Just because the IJA isn't making billions of dollars, does that mean you
don't care if they deceive you? Is shoplifting okay because they don't
steal very much? I'm not asking people to quit their jobs and devote
their lives to some cause. I'm just pointing out that the money won't get
spent where the IJA indicated it would.

Why that sends people like you into a panic and you drop any attempts at
logic, turn on (mild) profanity and yelling (caps) is something I don't
really understand. What are you trying to accomplish? If you want to
defend the IJA, great. I welcome it. Use facts. If you know where YEP
funds are spent, please let us know.

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[Little Paul]

On 2013-12-17, JJ Conductor <***@example.com> wrote:
>
> I probably shouldn't reply to a troll, but I will. The argument you
> appear to be making is that the IJA is small.

I think his point was that the IJA actually *is* run by shapeshifting lizards.

David Ike told me so.

-Paul
--
http://paulseward.com

[a***@gmail.com]

No, actually, the IJA is run by aliens with mind-control beams that secretly are trying to poison america's water supply like this baby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDRkkIsLlGM

[CamStradeski]

JJ Conductor wrote:
> I probably shouldn't reply to a troll, but I will. The argument you
> appear to be making is that the IJA is small. I'm assuming that you were
> being sarcastic with the Illuminati and lizards stuff. I'll grant your
> point that the IJA is small, but so what?
>
> Just because the IJA isn't making billions of dollars, does that mean you
> don't care if they deceive you? Is shoplifting okay because they don't
> steal very much? I'm not asking people to quit their jobs and devote
> their lives to some cause. I'm just pointing out that the money won't get
> spent where the IJA indicated it would.
>
> Why that sends people like you into a panic and you drop any attempts at
> logic, turn on (mild) profanity and yelling (caps) is something I don't
> really understand. What are you trying to accomplish? If you want to
> defend the IJA, great. I welcome it. Use facts. If you know where YEP
> funds are spent, please let us know.
>

You seem to have mistaken my throwaway generic comment for genuine caring; I
have no idea where any money goes, nor do I care.

My point was that he was making unfounded accusations with no concrete proof,
similar to a conspiracy theorist; hence the Illuminati/Lizard comment.

Obviously the subtext of that was lost, better luck next time I guess.

--
----== posted via www.jugglehub.com ==----

[Juggling Bob]

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:25:33 AM UTC-5, CamStradeski wrote:
>
> My point was that he was making unfounded accusations with no concrete proof,
>
> similar to a conspiracy theorist; hence the Illuminati/Lizard comment.


Making unfounded accusations with no concrete proof is Dave's Modus Operandi.

He has several years worth of history of doing that right here as well as the IJA forums.

[thegoheads]

Oh cool, we're doing this again?


If what you say is true, then the IJA board members are embezzling money
or just giving it to their friends or whatever.... so what? Isn't
everybody else in the world doing that too? Shit, I need to find a way to
do that... working job after job sure isn't cutting it.

What are you hoping to accomplish here?!? Surely there are worse things in
the world than the IJA, eh? If you were wronged so badly and already
beaten by the lawyers, nothing short of dishing out a good old fashoined
ass-kicking will make you feel any different, just my 2 cents...

-Steve

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[JJ Conductor]

First off, my apologies for the triple post. I found some time and may
have fixed the problem.

To be clear, I'm emphatically NOT saying IJA board members embezzled any
money. In fact it is almost logically impossible for IJA board members to
embezzle. If the board chooses to give itself money, that is LEGAL. Just
like it is legal for any other corporation's leadership to give money to
their CEOs. And yes, I agree that lots of for-profit and non-profit
corporations have compensation issues with their upper management. That
doesn't mean we should condone it.

As for what I'm trying to accomplish;
Someone on juggle chat recently ~said, "wouldn't it be wonderful if
jugglers ran the government?" Someone else responded (before I could)
that jugglers running things often ... doesn't work out. We want to think
that all jugglers are saints. We want to think that everything a juggler
says is true. We want to think the IJA membership dollars are being spent
promoting juggling. All are pleasant fantasies.

Most people have no idea where YEP dollars were spent. I doubt if anyone
knows how much (if any) was spent on "Props 2 U". So when the IJA lists
these first and second as what your membership dollars are going toward,
most people would be justified to assume those programs are where the
majority of membership funds are being spent. I'm pretty sure that isn't
even remotely true, so since I know that, I think I have a duty to correct
the mis-information. A better question is why is the IJA trying to
deceive jugglers? Obviously it is a better *pitch* when asking for money,
but if the IJA needs to distort its actions to get people to join ... that
is a problem.

As anyone who knows me knows, I am very passionate about promoting
juggling. My Christmas gift to the IJA year will be this unsought advice:
Get rid of membership. Probably most of the money collected in
membership is spent administering membership. That is wasteful and
foolish. The IJA having membership makes as much sense as the EJA having
membership. Take a hard look at what the organization is doing, and make
changes as needed.

--Dave

P.S. I will confess that I also usually respond to chain emails with
Snopes links that let the senders know the information they are spreading
isn't true. I don't know if putting the truth out there will help, but I
do think the world would be a better place if more people made that effort.


--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[Aidan]

I must admit I was disappointed when I saw you sniping at the IJA again. I
thought you had moved on. At least in this post you make some constructive
criticism.
From a distance it doesn't look pretty. I think most people reading
rec.juggling have no idea how a local one day convention works, never mind the
IJA or EJC. I know you have inside experience, from a few years back, and from
what I have heard, you did a good job in shaking up the system as was then.
You haven't been on the board for a while, and I wonder how much you know
about the current set up. I know you have a beef with one or two members in
particular.
I'll be honest, I don't really know anything about how the IJA is run. I know
at least one person involved quite well (I'm not sure if he's a board member,
but he is very active), and I have trust in people like Matt Hall. I
personally contribute articles for the IJA ezine, I think it's a good platform
for promoting juggling. The ezine is a step in the right direction for the
IJA. I'm not saying don't criticise the IJA, if there's something they could
be doing better you should let them know your opinion. What I am saying is
your original post in this thread really didn't do you any favours. It looks a
bit like a rant.
Hope to see you at EJC in Ireland :D
Aidan.

> First off, my apologies for the triple post. I found some time and may
> have fixed the problem.
>
> To be clear, I'm emphatically NOT saying IJA board members embezzled any
> money. In fact it is almost logically impossible for IJA board members to
> embezzle. If the board chooses to give itself money, that is LEGAL. Just
> like it is legal for any other corporation's leadership to give money to
> their CEOs. And yes, I agree that lots of for-profit and non-profit
> corporations have compensation issues with their upper management. That
> doesn't mean we should condone it.
>
> As for what I'm trying to accomplish;
> Someone on juggle chat recently ~said, "wouldn't it be wonderful if
> jugglers ran the government?" Someone else responded (before I could)
> that jugglers running things often ... doesn't work out. We want to think
> that all jugglers are saints. We want to think that everything a juggler
> says is true. We want to think the IJA membership dollars are being spent
> promoting juggling. All are pleasant fantasies.
>
> Most people have no idea where YEP dollars were spent. I doubt if anyone
> knows how much (if any) was spent on "Props 2 U". So when the IJA lists
> these first and second as what your membership dollars are going toward,
> most people would be justified to assume those programs are where the
> majority of membership funds are being spent. I'm pretty sure that isn't
> even remotely true, so since I know that, I think I have a duty to correct
> the mis-information. A better question is why is the IJA trying to
> deceive jugglers? Obviously it is a better *pitch* when asking for money,
> but if the IJA needs to distort its actions to get people to join ... that
> is a problem.
>
> As anyone who knows me knows, I am very passionate about promoting
> juggling. My Christmas gift to the IJA year will be this unsought advice:
> Get rid of membership. Probably most of the money collected in
> membership is spent administering membership. That is wasteful and
> foolish. The IJA having membership makes as much sense as the EJA having
> membership. Take a hard look at what the organization is doing, and make
> changes as needed.
>
> --Dave
>
> P.S. I will confess that I also usually respond to chain emails with
> Snopes links that let the senders know the information they are spreading
> isn't true. I don't know if putting the truth out there will help, but I
> do think the world would be a better place if more people made that effort.
>
>


--
----== posted via www.jugglehub.com ==----

[CamStradeski]

Oh shit, didn't you guys know, the IJA are a community of Illuminati
sympathizing shape- shifting lizards trying to exploit the lucrative juggling
community for the billions of dollars they make each month. . . RUN FOR THE
HILLS!!!!11!!1!1

> I would like point out that IMHO the IJA is putting out more
> mis-information in this video, and I still don't think anyone should
> support the IJA for ethical reasons.
>
> --
>
> This video starts out saying, "What does an IJA membership do? It helps
> the IJA Teach Kids with the Youth Education Program (YEP)"
>
> I don't believe this is true. As near as I can tell not a single dollar
> of IJA membership has ever been spent on YEP. Instead YEP is fully funded
> by iiWii (a generous anonymous donor). Furthermore I think it is
> debatable whether iiWii's funds are really being used to promote youth
> juggling. The IJA keeps secret where iiWii's YEP funds are spent, but
> from rumors it all tends to go either to IJA board members, or to friends
> of IJA board members (possibly in exchange for other considerations). I'd
> like the IJA to give a full report of where these funds have been spent.
>
> I'm not saying that no IJA member has ever helped teach kids to juggle. I
> think most jugglers do it often. Our local club has been helping several
> groups. The big difference is that we don't charge iiWii $500 when we
> help kids learn to juggle. Frankly my suspicion is that the IJA has been
> abusing iiWii's generosity, but I invite them to prove me wrong.
>
> --
>
> The video's next point is that the IJA "Gives props to juggling programs
> worldwide with the props 2 U program".
>
> Again this seems to be a distortion of the facts. I don't believe a
> single membership dollar has gone to buying props to be given away
> worldwide. In fairness there are IJA members who have given away their
> old props. The IJA probably had a role in helping get the props to the
> destination. But I suspect very little, if any, money was spent on this.
> Again I invite the IJA to disclose how much has been spent on this "reason
> to join" over the past 5 years.
>
>
> The video then claims vendor discounts as a reason for joining. It is
> true that there are some vendor discounts offered (usually about 10%). It
> is also true that you can generally get the same discount without joining
> the IJA. Regardless, you would need to buy a lot of props to "save"
> enough to pay for your IJA membership. (and if you are buying a lot, I
> can practically guarantee they will give you a discount regardless.)
>
> --
>
> The IJA promotional video then concludes saying the IJA has videos and a
> festival.
>
> These claims are true, but not very impressive. If people want juggling
> videos, look here:
> http://jugglejunction.org/newVids.php?mode=recommended
> They are free, and often better than the IJA videos. I'll bet there are
> more good videos for free than you can watch.
>
> As for the IJA festival, it is IMHO mostly dead, or a least a fraction of
> what it used to be. Attendance has dropped such that it now is no longer
> a "major festival". Granted, still fun, but overpriced and a bit elitist
> and likely to stay that way. I think anyone who doesn't mind paying a bit
> for a festival should consider EJC in Ireland. Much bigger/better
> festival (in most people's opinion) and it is likely to be cheaper too
> (even for people in USA).
>
> --
>
> Disclaimer: For anyone who doesn't know it, I was expelled from the IJA
> years ago for pointing out mismanagement and distortions by IJA leaders.
> Prior to that I was twice the board chairman. The membership subsequently
> voted to overturn this expulsion, but every IJA board since has failed to
> honor the membership's vote, the current leadership seems to not be an
> exception, and thus I still question the IJA leaderships ethics. (See the
> games played in choosing a festival director for next year)
>
> --Dave
>
>
>
>


--
----== posted via www.jugglehub.com ==----

[Dave]

CamStradeski and all,

FWIIW, you hurt my feelings when you imply that I'm making this stuff up,
or that it isn't important. As it turns out, it isn't very hard to prove
my claims. IJA financial documents are mostly cryptic, but they are clear
on these point. see: http://www.juggle.org/business/finance/

The IJA financial reports show nothing spent on "props 2 you" (p2y) this
year, and only $28.59 in 2012. Going back to 2011 we see that someone
donated $500 to this program, almost all of which has yet to be spent. So
you want "proof", yes, the financial documents support my position that
the IJA has never spent a single membership dollar on this program.
Furthermore they haven't even spent the money they were entrusted with on
this. (I wonder if the donor knows this.)

It is the same story for the "Youth Education Program". iiWii has given
$5K per year to be spent on this. The IJA has spent less than that, so
that proves that the IJA's #1 and #2 claim of why people should join /
financially support the IJA are almost totally bogus.

Obviously the IJA is not a big corporation, we are not talking million of
dollars here. But last year the IJA collected $32,223.88 in "membership
fees". Far less than "millions of dollars" but enough money to totally
fund dozens of local festivals. That money could be being used to
"promote juggling", is it now? I don't think so (or at least not very
well). I believe the IJA made a Freudian slip last World Juggling Day.
Rather than promote juggling, they had a contest for people to show how
much they "love the IJA".

So yes, I can prove my claims. And yes, this is a lot of money (for the
juggling world). If people choose to not care or to blindly believe that
anything said by the IJA must be true, I can't do anything to change that.
But I do think someone should have pointed out what I pointed out.
Actually an IJA board member should have made my post. There *should* be
a discussion about what IJA membership dollars should be used for and
whether the IJA should still even charge for membership.

As a final note, the IJA isn't the only spot where politics and nepotism
exist. If you look around, you will find it is all too common both in and
outside of the juggling world. I don't think this means anyone should get
disgusted with juggling or jugglers, but I do think we ought to spend at
least a little effort to make things better. We should request more open
disclosure of where our (public) juggling dollars are spent. I think we
can do much better with the tens of thousands of dollars we are discussing
here.

--Dave

--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

[Juggling Bob]

On Monday, December 30, 2013 1:00:37 PM UTC-5, Dave wrote:

>
> The IJA financial reports show nothing spent on "props 2 you" (p2y) this
>
> year, and only $28.59 in 2012. Going back to 2011 we see that someone
>
> donated $500 to this program, almost all of which has yet to be spent. So
>
> you want "proof", yes, the financial documents support my position that
>
> the IJA has never spent a single membership dollar on this program.
>
> Furthermore they haven't even spent the money they were entrusted with on
>
> this. (I wonder if the donor knows this.)

You only have quarters 1 and 4. So that is not "proof" of much Dave.

Also, all kinds of non-profits (Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, etc) often try programs that don't really go anywhere. Nothing nefarious about it. It just didn't take off. Do you have proof of anything other than your conspiracy theories?

>
> It is the same story for the "Youth Education Program". iiWii has given
>
> $5K per year to be spent on this. The IJA has spent less than that, so
>
> that proves that the IJA's #1 and #2 claim of why people should join /
>
> financially support the IJA are almost totally bogus.


Not at all. Any money that goes to the IJA to keep it running indirectly supports these programs. Same with all non-profits (and for-profits as well.)



> Obviously the IJA is not a big corporation, we are not talking million of
>
> dollars here. But last year the IJA collected $32,223.88 in "membership
>
> fees". Far less than "millions of dollars" but enough money to totally
>
> fund dozens of local festivals. That money could be being used to
>
> "promote juggling", is it now? I don't think so (or at least not very
>
> well).

So, again. They are doing exactly as they claim, You just don't like it. Once again trying to use your opinion as fact.




> So yes, I can prove my claims.

No, you can't. You never have been able to. Your credibility was shot years ago (hence the illuminati and conspriacy jokes made as the responses.)




> But I do think someone should have pointed out what I pointed out.
>
> Actually an IJA board member should have made my post.


Yes because everyone must have the same opinion as you. What happened to your teeming hordes of supporters you always claimed to have? Why didn't one of them do it?




> disclosure of where our (public) juggling dollars are spent. I think we
>
> can do much better with the tens of thousands of dollars we are discussing
>
> here.


Again, your opinion only..

[Bob Neuman]

Just to be clear....the person posting using the name Juggling Bob is NOT the same person that posted under that same name years ago.
I was using that name when rec.juggling was at the old site and frequently posted in response to "Dave's" posts. But, alas, I no longer do that...
I was recently informed by another person of this possible misunderstanding.
I would have posted sooner, to avoid any confusion, but I was unaware go this thread going on.
To further the clarity, I am the Bob who was on the IJA's Board and live in TX. And I have no opinion on this discussion. I am far removed from most of the IJA's workings and business.
I just did not want anyone to think that I was getting back involved in these discussions!
Bob Neuman

[Juggling Bob]

On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 1:30:01 AM UTC-5, Bob Neuman wrote:
> Just to be clear....the person posting using the name Juggling Bob is NOT the same person that posted under that same name years ago.
>
> I was using that name when rec.juggling was at the old site and frequently posted in response to "Dave's" posts. But, alas, I no longer do that...
>
> I was recently informed by another person of this possible misunderstanding.
>
> I would have posted sooner, to avoid any confusion, but I was unaware go this thread going on.
>
> To further the clarity, I am the Bob who was on the IJA's Board and live in TX. And I have no opinion on this discussion. I am far removed from most of the IJA's workings and business.
>
> I just did not want anyone to think that I was getting back involved in these discussions!
>
> Bob Neuman

I used this name under the Old IJA forum and on here during Dave's last failed attempt at conspiracy theory (2 years ago). He was about as effective then too, but then he had the advantage of everyone not having heard his line of bull ad-infinitum.

I too was a former board member. I can see the possible confusion.

I, on the other hand, will not allow Dave's BS to go unchallenged. I guess he was hoping enough time had passed that people would have forgotten the mess he made for himself the last time.

[Juggling Bob]

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:50:18 PM UTC-5, Dave wrote:

> Disclaimer: For anyone who doesn't know it, I was expelled from the IJA
>
> years ago for pointing out mismanagement and distortions by IJA leaders.
>
> Prior to that I was twice the board chairman. The membership subsequently
>
> voted to overturn this expulsion, but every IJA board since has failed to
>
> honor the membership's vote, the current leadership seems to not be an
>
> exception, and thus I still question the IJA leaderships ethics. (See the
>
> games played in choosing a festival director for next year)
>
>
>
> --Dave


Talk about a load of misleading crap (and that's putting it nicely).

[Juggling Bob]

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:50:18 PM UTC-5, Dave wrote:


> groups. The big difference is that we don't charge iiWii $500 when we
>
> help kids learn to juggle. Frankly my suspicion is that the IJA has been
>
> abusing iiWii's generosity, but I invite them to prove me wrong.


As usual, you've forgotten how things work. You made the accusation, you have to provide the proof that they are. Do you have any real evidence of anything?



> The video then claims vendor discounts as a reason for joining. It is
>
> true that there are some vendor discounts offered (usually about 10%).

Then they offer discounts as stated..

> Regardless, you would need to buy a lot of props to "save"
>
> enough to pay for your IJA membership. (and if you are buying a lot, I
>
> can practically guarantee they will give you a discount regardless.)


Irrelevant. Discount is provided as claimed.


> These claims are true, but not very impressive.


To sum up, everything in there is true, you just don't like it.

Yeah.. quality argument as usual Dave.