The Decline of Juggling, the Internet, and the World

[Dave]

There are two classic complaints people make. 1) That things were so much
tougher when they were young, and 2) That things today are getting worse
than the good old days. This is the latter.

The Internet was perhaps the crowning achievement of the last millennium.
With it, some proclaimed the dawn of the Information Age. Indeed the
Internet was designed with the goal of facilitating the spread of
information between people everywhere. And the designed has been proven
to be up to the task.

Today though, idealistic academicians are no longer in control. Today the
Internet is primarily controlled by people who are interested in power and
wealth. And they too have been very successful at turning the Internet
into their tool. The growth of “social media”, while in some ways
increasing connectivity, has also helped limit the flow of information (to
all but the NSA and a few major corporations).

These changes in the Internet have imho had a painful affect on our
juggling world. This year's IJA and EJC conventions just ended, yet
information about them is mostly non-existent. IJA festival had what
should be a major controversy (the board kicked a “juggling legend”
out of it's festival) yet I couldn't find even a peep about it on the
World Wide Web. Who won the Championships? How many people came? Again,
I couldn't find the information anywhere. Back in the 90s, there would
have been much discussion about all these things. Anyone could have
joined in these discussions, or just lurked. That dynamic, sadly, no
longer exists.

This isn't just happening in the juggling world, this is happening all
over. Our leaders, whether the IJA board or the NSA, don't want to
explain their actions. There are very few Snowdens in the world that will
stand up and try to get the word out. And those few are often punished,
and us (the masses) do little to help them. Instead we are allowing
ourselves to be penned up. We talk with our circle of “friends” and
don't realize what is really going on out in the world (or that we are
being controlled).

Of course there is nothing about the Internet that makes it primarily a
tool for leaders and power mongers. The underlying design of the Internet
is still a good one, but how we use it ... is up to us.

--Dave

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Dave
There are two classic complaints people make. 1) That things were so much
tougher when they were young, and 2) That things today are getting worse
than the good old days. This is the latter.
The Internet was perhaps the crowning achievement of the last millennium.
With it, some proclaimed the dawn of the Information Age. Indeed the
Internet was designed with the goal of facilitating the spread of
information between people everywhere. And the designed has been proven
to be up to the task.
Today though, idealistic academicians are no longer in control. Today the
Internet is primarily controlled by people who are interested in power and
wealth. And they too have been very successful at turning the Internet
into their tool. The growth of "social media", while in some ways
increasing connectivity, has also helped limit the flow of information (to
all but the NSA and a few major corporations).
These changes in the Internet have imho had a painful affect on our
juggling world. This year's IJA and EJC conventions just ended, yet
information about them is mostly non-existent. IJA festival had what
should be a major controversy (the board kicked a "juggling legend"
out of it's festival) yet I couldn't find even a peep about it on the
World Wide Web. Who won the Championships? How many people came? Again,
I couldn't find the information anywhere. Back in the 90s, there would
have been much discussion about all these things. Anyone could have
joined in these discussions, or just lurked. That dynamic, sadly, no
longer exists.
This isn't just happening in the juggling world, this is happening all
over. Our leaders, whether the IJA board or the NSA, don't want to
explain their actions. There are very few Snowdens in the world that will
stand up and try to get the word out. And those few are often punished,
and us (the masses) do little to help them. Instead we are allowing
ourselves to be penned up. We talk with our circle of "friends" and
don't realize what is really going on out in the world (or that we are
being controlled).
Of course there is nothing about the Internet that makes it primarily a
tool for leaders and power mongers. The underlying design of the Internet
is still a good one, but how we use it ... is up to us.
--Dave
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

Admittedly the third hit down from googling ija 2014 championships, but still there: http://www.juggle.org/ija/championships/2014-west-lafayette-in/

But yes, I agree with most of what you're saying. I had a horrible time figuring out the top 3 in JJF last year, which I thought should have been a trivial task.

The IJA's web presence has started to be improved with the e-zine, and work is still being done with that these days.

For more info about the background and drama that occurred this year, see this post in /r/juggling: http://www.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/2cma7v/ija_2014_hlgbcs/

And I believe there were ~300 people who bought festival packages this year, plus however many day-buy-inners.

Mike

[Aidan]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Dave
There are two classic complaints people make. 1) That things were so much
tougher when they were young, and 2) That things today are getting worse
than the good old days. This is the latter.
The Internet was perhaps the crowning achievement of the last millennium.
With it, some proclaimed the dawn of the Information Age. Indeed the
Internet was designed with the goal of facilitating the spread of
information between people everywhere. And the designed has been proven
to be up to the task.
Today though, idealistic academicians are no longer in control. Today the
Internet is primarily controlled by people who are interested in power and
wealth. And they too have been very successful at turning the Internet
into their tool. The growth of "social media", while in some ways
increasing connectivity, has also helped limit the flow of information (to
all but the NSA and a few major corporations).
These changes in the Internet have imho had a painful affect on our
juggling world. This year's IJA and EJC conventions just ended, yet
information about them is mostly non-existent. IJA festival had what
should be a major controversy (the board kicked a "juggling legend"
out of it's festival) yet I couldn't find even a peep about it on the
World Wide Web. Who won the Championships? How many people came? Again,
I couldn't find the information anywhere. Back in the 90s, there would
have been much discussion about all these things. Anyone could have
joined in these discussions, or just lurked. That dynamic, sadly, no
longer exists.
This isn't just happening in the juggling world, this is happening all
over. Our leaders, whether the IJA board or the NSA, don't want to
explain their actions. There are very few Snowdens in the world that will
stand up and try to get the word out. And those few are often punished,
and us (the masses) do little to help them. Instead we are allowing
ourselves to be penned up. We talk with our circle of "friends" and
don't realize what is really going on out in the world (or that we are
being controlled).
Of course there is nothing about the Internet that makes it primarily a
tool for leaders and power mongers. The underlying design of the Internet
is still a good one, but how we use it ... is up to us.
--Dave
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

Admittedly the third hit down from googling ija 2014 championships, but

still there: http://
www.juggle.org/ija/championships/2014-west-lafayette-in/

Post by a***@gmail.com
But yes, I agree with most of what you're saying. I had a horrible time

figuring out the top 3
in JJF last year, which I thought should have been a trivial task.

Post by a***@gmail.com
The IJA's web presence has started to be improved with the e-zine, and work

is still being
done with that these days.

Post by a***@gmail.com
For more info about the background and drama that occurred this year, see

this post in /r/
juggling: http://www.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/2cma7v/ija_2014_hlgbcs/

Post by a***@gmail.com
And I believe there were ~300 people who bought festival packages this year,

plus however
many day-buy-inners.

Post by a***@gmail.com
Mike

There were 2200 at the EJC in Millstreet, Ireland. The weather was
amazing, people went home
with a suntan after a week in Ireland.
There was controversy too. In the first running of the gala show there was
an act with lots of
swearing and slagging off of the Pope. This in a very Catholic country. A
lot of locals who had
come to the show walked out and demanded a refund. Needless to say this
act was dropped
from the second show.
The day before was a show entitled the legends show. Quite a few people
said it was the best
show they'd seen. I didn't go to any shows, so I can't comment.
Aidan.

[Dave]

Post by thegoheads
People are bastards, always have been. Has anything really changed? Now
they just have fancier gadgets to be larger-scale bastards with, that's
all... I do miss the days when the internet made communication easier
rather than more convoluted, but maybe that's just from my perspective.

Well said. And in a lot less words than I used. :)

I heard a talk (ironically via the Internet) about how the Internet is
just a tool. It can be used to make the world a better place, or a worse
place. The negative example they used is that for totalitarian
governments it is now maybe the easiest it has ever been to monitor and
round up potential opponents.

[thegoheads]

Post by Dave

Post by thegoheads
People are bastards, always have been. Has anything really changed? Now
they just have fancier gadgets to be larger-scale bastards with, that's
all... I do miss the days when the internet made communication easier
rather than more convoluted, but maybe that's just from my perspective.

Well said. And in a lot less words than I used. :)

I'm glad you liked that :) Though clearly a smart-ass cynical comment, I
also meant it sympathetically. We live in an interesting time, I believe
things are coming to a head and we may have the chance to observe some
major shit hitting the global fan in our lifetime. It stresses me out a
lot sometimes... but I'm the "hide in a cave" type guy rather than a "get
involved and make the world a different place" type guy, because I have
zero faith in humanity and on a long enough timeline, nothing matters.
Sorry I can't contribute more to the discussion than that :(

[Dave]

Mike, Aidan,

Thanks for the information.

I really do see the juggling community as a micro version of the world.
The Internet has been wonderful in that it joined together people with a
similar interests (in our case juggling). But somewhere along the way,
the Internet started isolating these groups from the world. In politics
conservatives have surrounded themselves with only conservatives.
Liberals only get feedback from liberals. This has made people more
certain than ever that THEIR position is the right one.

This same dynamic is in the juggling community. The questionable EJC
performance probably sounded like "a great idea" to the guy's friends.
Likewise the IJA inner circle, who were annoyed at the guy anyway,
probably told each other it would be a great idea to kick him out. IMHO,
people make mistakes when they isolate themselves and start only hearing
from their "friends".

I don't know much about either situation, but I do know it is very unusual
for the IJA to charge a performer (most are given a free hotel room and
airfare) so it isn't surprising that this guy was upset. I also doubt the
IJA's contention that this guy (who I think is in his 60s) was putting
anyone "in grave physical danger". Doesn't smell right.

Regardless, the real issue is community. How can we grow the juggling
community. How can we make people part of the process. One key way is to
use discussion forums like this one. If leaders discussed these things
here, then people could start to feel, AND ACTUALLY BE, part of the
juggling community. By limiting these conversations, we are hurting the
juggling community. Based just on these recent events, here are several
possible topics that we could discuss (preferably in separate threads):

1) Where is the line between self expression and making others feel
uncomfortable?

2) What guidelines should organizers give performers?

3) Should performers be given large compensation packages? (Does this
create a caste system within the juggling community?)

4) What can be done to reduce the grief organizers are given from
performers wanting expensive perk packages (in exchange for a 10 minute
act)?

5) How can organizers be held accountable for their actions?

And also less weighty threads should be going, such as "what was your
favorite act?". A list of the IJA winners is nice, but just names,
without details, doesn't foster community or discussion. IMHO, the
juggling community is worse now than we were a few years back as all of
these discussions (I think they are still being talked about) are now done
only between "friends". The discussions are locked away from new jugglers
and anyone not it the right circles. This makes us more isolated, and
probably is resulting in worse leadership.

Likewise the same issues exist in the greater world. Fox news does not
give "balanced coverage". SNL does not treat both political parties the
same. When we only listen to people who agree with us, our opinions
become uninformed and, most-likely, wrong. I believe this is true of the
juggling community and out in the world.

--Dave

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Dave
Mike, Aidan,
Thanks for the information.
I really do see the juggling community as a micro version of the world.
The Internet has been wonderful in that it joined together people with a
similar interests (in our case juggling). But somewhere along the way,
the Internet started isolating these groups from the world. In politics
conservatives have surrounded themselves with only conservatives.
Liberals only get feedback from liberals. This has made people more
certain than ever that THEIR position is the right one.
This same dynamic is in the juggling community. The questionable EJC
performance probably sounded like "a great idea" to the guy's friends.
Likewise the IJA inner circle, who were annoyed at the guy anyway,
probably told each other it would be a great idea to kick him out. IMHO,
people make mistakes when they isolate themselves and start only hearing
from their "friends".
I don't know much about either situation, but I do know it is very unusual
for the IJA to charge a performer (most are given a free hotel room and
airfare) so it isn't surprising that this guy was upset. I also doubt the
IJA's contention that this guy (who I think is in his 60s) was putting
anyone "in grave physical danger". Doesn't smell right.
Regardless, the real issue is community. How can we grow the juggling
community. How can we make people part of the process. One key way is to
use discussion forums like this one. If leaders discussed these things
here, then people could start to feel, AND ACTUALLY BE, part of the
juggling community. By limiting these conversations, we are hurting the
juggling community. Based just on these recent events, here are several
1) Where is the line between self expression and making others feel
uncomfortable?
2) What guidelines should organizers give performers?
3) Should performers be given large compensation packages? (Does this
create a caste system within the juggling community?)
4) What can be done to reduce the grief organizers are given from
performers wanting expensive perk packages (in exchange for a 10 minute
act)?
5) How can organizers be held accountable for their actions?
And also less weighty threads should be going, such as "what was your
favorite act?". A list of the IJA winners is nice, but just names,
without details, doesn't foster community or discussion. IMHO, the
juggling community is worse now than we were a few years back as all of
these discussions (I think they are still being talked about) are now done
only between "friends". The discussions are locked away from new jugglers
and anyone not it the right circles. This makes us more isolated, and
probably is resulting in worse leadership.
Likewise the same issues exist in the greater world. Fox news does not
give "balanced coverage". SNL does not treat both political parties the
same. When we only listen to people who agree with us, our opinions
become uninformed and, most-likely, wrong. I believe this is true of the
juggling community and out in the world.
--Dave
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----
but I do know it is very unusual

for the IJA to charge a performer (most are given a free hotel room and
airfare)

Is this true for the welcome show? I figured it was the case for Cascade of Stars, but that seems like quite a bit for the welcome show.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Dave

Post by Dave
Mike, Aidan,
Thanks for the information.
I really do see the juggling community as a micro version of the world.
The Internet has been wonderful in that it joined together people with a
similar interests (in our case juggling). But somewhere along the way,
the Internet started isolating these groups from the world. In politics
conservatives have surrounded themselves with only conservatives.
Liberals only get feedback from liberals. This has made people more
certain than ever that THEIR position is the right one.
This same dynamic is in the juggling community. The questionable EJC
performance probably sounded like "a great idea" to the guy's friends.
Likewise the IJA inner circle, who were annoyed at the guy anyway,
probably told each other it would be a great idea to kick him out. IMHO,
people make mistakes when they isolate themselves and start only hearing
from their "friends".
I don't know much about either situation, but I do know it is very unusual
for the IJA to charge a performer (most are given a free hotel room and
airfare) so it isn't surprising that this guy was upset. I also doubt the
IJA's contention that this guy (who I think is in his 60s) was putting
anyone "in grave physical danger". Doesn't smell right.
Regardless, the real issue is community. How can we grow the juggling
community. How can we make people part of the process. One key way is to
use discussion forums like this one. If leaders discussed these things
here, then people could start to feel, AND ACTUALLY BE, part of the
juggling community. By limiting these conversations, we are hurting the
juggling community. Based just on these recent events, here are several
1) Where is the line between self expression and making others feel
uncomfortable?
2) What guidelines should organizers give performers?
3) Should performers be given large compensation packages? (Does this
create a caste system within the juggling community?)
4) What can be done to reduce the grief organizers are given from
performers wanting expensive perk packages (in exchange for a 10 minute
act)?
5) How can organizers be held accountable for their actions?
And also less weighty threads should be going, such as "what was your
favorite act?". A list of the IJA winners is nice, but just names,
without details, doesn't foster community or discussion. IMHO, the
juggling community is worse now than we were a few years back as all of
these discussions (I think they are still being talked about) are now done
only between "friends". The discussions are locked away from new jugglers
and anyone not it the right circles. This makes us more isolated, and
probably is resulting in worse leadership.
Likewise the same issues exist in the greater world. Fox news does not
give "balanced coverage". SNL does not treat both political parties the
same. When we only listen to people who agree with us, our opinions
become uninformed and, most-likely, wrong. I believe this is true of the
juggling community and out in the world.
--Dave
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----
but I do know it is very unusual

for the IJA to charge a performer (most are given a free hotel room and
airfare)
Is this true for the welcome show? I figured it was the case for Cascade of Stars, but that seems like quite a bit for the welcome show.

PS - why post this here instead of a more active site like jugglingedge?

[Dave]

One point I'm making is that today's Internet creates the (false)
impression of information exchange. We get 5 pictures of cats via social
media and think we know all about what is going on in the world. We gets
lots on unverifiable information from people and "friends" who claim to
know "the truth".

Even if we assume your anonymous source was making a good faith effort to
tell you the truth, there is no guarantee that that their beliefs are
correct. Well meaning people still can, and do, confuse the facts.
Memories fail and events get distorted, especially over time.
Psychologist have repeatedly shown that we (all of us) are often wrong
about even things we feel certain of. To begin to "know facts", we need
open discussions and sources we can cite. We need a healthy rec.juggling.
Unfortunately being able to get information from anonymous unverifiable
sources in 10 minutes is largely useless for purposes of open discussion
or fact checking (but thanks for doing it nonetheless).

In this instance, your source conflicts with and undermines the IJA's
position (as stated by the previous chairman). If we assume your source
is correct and ~40 comps were given this year, then that is slightly above
normal (~35 iirc). This means it is very likely that everyone (other than
the one guy) performing in the opening show were given comps. Thus it
appears his annoyance at the IJA was justified and he was being treated
worse than the other performers.

Psychologists also tell us that many people won't admit they are wrong
even when, or maybe especially when, the facts prove they are wrong*. I
suspect that the odds of the IJA leaders admitting they overreacted is
about the same as the odds that the republicans or democrats will start
admitting the other side has some valid points.

My point here is that we (jugglers and non-jugglers alike) would benefit
from more open discussions on the Internet. We know that "facts" are
hard to establish. We know that people, including leaders, will make
mistakes. We humans have many biases and irrational behaviors. There was
hope that the Internet would help combat this by fostering open
communication and debate. Unfortunately there is evidence that the
current trend of the Internet is to strengthen irrational biases and
behavior*.

Imagine that you angered someone within the IJA leadership, then the next
day the IJA decided that you were to be banned from the next festival,
"for reasons they can't go into publicly". You would be without any
recourse to object. You couldn't refute the IJA's unknown (private)
argument nor would there be anyone to appeal too. This is NOT how
jugglers or a just society should operate. This is one thing the Internet
was designed to help combat.

I've laughed (and cried) repeatedly over the last few days at the
"surveillance with adverts" line. I understand that for the leaders and
the powerful, the Internet is a great tool. I find that scary. We (us
little guys) had better wake up to the current and possible abuses. We
need to be ever-vigilant against abuses of power; both in the juggling
community and in the world.


*
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Dave
One point I'm making is that today's Internet creates the (false)
impression of information exchange. We get 5 pictures of cats via social
media and think we know all about what is going on in the world. We gets
lots on unverifiable information from people and "friends" who claim to
know "the truth".
Even if we assume your anonymous source was making a good faith effort to
tell you the truth, there is no guarantee that that their beliefs are
correct. Well meaning people still can, and do, confuse the facts.
Memories fail and events get distorted, especially over time.
Psychologist have repeatedly shown that we (all of us) are often wrong
about even things we feel certain of. To begin to "know facts", we need
open discussions and sources we can cite. We need a healthy rec.juggling.
Unfortunately being able to get information from anonymous unverifiable
sources in 10 minutes is largely useless for purposes of open discussion
or fact checking (but thanks for doing it nonetheless).
In this instance, your source conflicts with and undermines the IJA's
position (as stated by the previous chairman). If we assume your source
is correct and ~40 comps were given this year, then that is slightly above
normal (~35 iirc). This means it is very likely that everyone (other than
the one guy) performing in the opening show were given comps. Thus it
appears his annoyance at the IJA was justified and he was being treated
worse than the other performers.
Psychologists also tell us that many people won't admit they are wrong
even when, or maybe especially when, the facts prove they are wrong*. I
suspect that the odds of the IJA leaders admitting they overreacted is
about the same as the odds that the republicans or democrats will start
admitting the other side has some valid points.
My point here is that we (jugglers and non-jugglers alike) would benefit
from more open discussions on the Internet. We know that "facts" are
hard to establish. We know that people, including leaders, will make
mistakes. We humans have many biases and irrational behaviors. There was
hope that the Internet would help combat this by fostering open
communication and debate. Unfortunately there is evidence that the
current trend of the Internet is to strengthen irrational biases and
behavior*.
Imagine that you angered someone within the IJA leadership, then the next
day the IJA decided that you were to be banned from the next festival,
"for reasons they can't go into publicly". You would be without any
recourse to object. You couldn't refute the IJA's unknown (private)
argument nor would there be anyone to appeal too. This is NOT how
jugglers or a just society should operate. This is one thing the Internet
was designed to help combat.
I've laughed (and cried) repeatedly over the last few days at the
"surveillance with adverts" line. I understand that for the leaders and
the powerful, the Internet is a great tool. I find that scary. We (us
little guys) had better wake up to the current and possible abuses. We
need to be ever-vigilant against abuses of power; both in the juggling
community and in the world.
*
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

We're on the same page about wanting more information posted in an easily found, archived way. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you on that point! I believe my source was sufficiently knowledgable about the topic, but can understand skepticism about some unknown source feeding me information.

Post by Dave
To begin to "know facts", we need open discussions and sources we can cite. We need a healthy rec.juggling.

I feel like this is a bit of a jump. jugglingedge is also easily searchable and currently well archived. While it is possible to change this (and, from what I gather, it's fundamentally impossible to change this on a newsgroup?) it is the best medium for those purposes that a reasonable number of people are contributing to. I'm uninformed about the structure of jugglingedge, so I can't comment on how well it will last after ______ happens. Reddit seems to have a nice archival system, but from old rec. conversation, I seem to remember that you weren't a fan of up/downvoting posts/threads.

I don't think I've previously posted my opinion on this, but I would certainly not be sad if people returned to a newsgroup system.

Post by Dave
This means it is very likely that everyone (other than

the one guy) performing in the opening show were given comps. Thus it appears his annoyance at the IJA was justified and he was being treated worse than the other performers.

This is, IMO, also a jump. Seeing as now neither of us (I think!) have insight on how these were distributed, I'm not ready to say that. I expect that at least some of the welcome show performers received comps, as there was a fair bit of overlap between welcome show performers and CoS performers. There was a regional fest winner who I'd guess got one, but after that, your guess is as good as mine. Frankly, whether or not one agrees with the IJA's decision to give a comp or not, I feel it's unreasonable to have expectations of reciprocation when volunteers for something.

Based on previous years giving out few comp packages, I believe that expecting a comp package for performing in a welcome show this year was unjustified, especially at the time.

Post by Dave
My point here is that we (jugglers and non-jugglers alike) would benefit from more open discussions on the Internet.

Yes yes yes yes! I agree completely. And this is hard. I certainly appreciate jugglejunction, and I try to do my part in encouraging open discussion as well (I "moderate" another conversation outlet. Moderate in quotes because it really means helping to organize larger projects, helping eith archiving, etc., rather than typical moderation).

Lastly, regarding anonymity of people being banned and detail omission, I think a reasonable way of approaching this would be through private conversation between the two parties.

Oh! One thing that came up in the business meeting that may interest you: there are plans for the hiring of an executive director for the IJA who is unrelated to the juggling community. Kevin Axtel spoke about the importance of that as this helping to avoid hiring of friends, and leading to more objective decisions.

[Dave]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Dave
To begin to "know facts", we need open discussions and sources we can cite.

We need a healthy rec.juggling.

Post by a***@gmail.com
I feel like this is a bit of a jump. jugglingedge is also easily searchable

and currently well archived.

Sorry, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. If you prefer,
substitute "We need a healthy juggling edge" or "We need a healthy
Internet". I just did a search for "IJA" on juggling edge, there have
only been 3 posts all summer (and that is being generous). Searches for
"comps" and "finances" and other serious discussions also generally came
up blank. The point I am trying to make is that these conversations aren't
happening ANYWHERE that I know of (at least nowhere public). This is not
a good thing. The information age has not materialized.

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Dave
This means it is very likely that everyone (other than
the one guy) performing in the opening show were given comps. Thus it
appears his annoyance at the IJA was justified and he was being treated
worse than the other performers.

This is, IMO, also a jump. Seeing as now neither of us (I think!) have

insight on how these were distributed, I'm not ready to say that.

I understand your point, but as someone with years of IJA experience
(insight?), I'll stick with my position. 40 comps is a lot. The bigger
issue is how ridiculous it is that we can't *know* who got a comp. Why
are facts so hard to get? What would it hurt for this to be public
information? How can we demand open disclosure from our politicians if we
don't even ask it from ourselves (fellow jugglers)?

Post by a***@gmail.com
Frankly, whether or not one agrees with the IJA's decision to give a comp

or not, I feel it's unreasonable to have expectations of reciprocation when
volunteers for something.

Agreed! The IJA could have (and should have) said, "yes we may be giving
comps to other performers, but we are letting you perform as a favor to
you. You don't get a comp too." I think it was silly to state the
misleading, if not outright false, red herring of "Oh it is normal not to
comp performers". That simply hasn't been true over the last 30 years.
That answer would have annoyed almost any seasoned performer. More
generally, both the IJA and the performer should have discussed
compensation from the beginning. I agree that it was foolish of both
sides to have made assumptions. As we've been saying, more communication
would have been good.

[thegoheads]

Post by Dave
Searches for
"comps" and "finances" and other serious discussions also generally came
up blank. The point I am trying to make is that these conversations aren't
happening ANYWHERE that I know of (at least nowhere public). This is not
a good thing.

Doesn't that suggest that nobody really wants to talk about it? I don't
understand why that is not a good thing, although I think I understand why
yooooooou think that's not a good thing...

Post by Dave
The bigger
issue is how ridiculous it is that we can't *know* who got a comp. Why
are facts so hard to get? What would it hurt for this to be public
information?

I don't see why that information would be public. Perks and benefits that
some people receive are typically private in any situation. You wouldn't
go ask your boss how much he/she gets paid, just out of curiousity, would
you? What would it *hurt* for this info to be public? I ask, what would it
*help* for this info to be public?? Are you just nitpicking every little
thing because of your hatred for the IJA
politicians/leaders/bosses/whatever??

Not trying to be a dick, you seem like a good guy and I agree with you
about a lot of stuff, but it seems you take small things that only matter
to you and try to make the IJA look bad.

Oh gosh, why do I keep doing this.........

[Juggling Bob]

Post by thegoheads
Not trying to be a dick, you seem like a good guy and I agree with you
about a lot of stuff, but it seems you take small things that only matter
to you and try to make the IJA look bad.

That's been his Modus Operandi for years.

https://www.facebook.com/events/153501861522980/

Quick check of the IJA's facebook page shows they were posting the results as they happened and posted the minutes of the business meeting as well. They also posted other various awards given at the other shows.

But since they were hand delivered to Dave in a golden envelope on a felt pillow, it obviously didn't happen.

Once again, Dave posting his half truths and conspiracy theories as fact..

[Mike]

Post by Juggling Bob

Post by thegoheads
Not trying to be a dick, you seem like a good guy and I agree with you
about a lot of stuff, but it seems you take small things that only matter
to you and try to make the IJA look bad.

That's been his Modus Operandi for years.
https://www.facebook.com/events/153501861522980/
Quick check of the IJA's facebook page shows they were posting the results as they happened and posted the minutes of the business meeting as well. They also posted other various awards given at the other shows.
But since they were hand delivered to Dave in a golden envelope on a felt pillow, it obviously didn't happen.
Once again, Dave posting his half truths and conspiracy theories as fact..

I understand Dave's concerns about the poor archival of that information, though. It's posted as a comment in an event page, which is way harder to find than something like this: http://www.juggle.org/ija/championships/

IMO, all of the games/competitions should be listed like that! It's very simple and easy to find.

Oh wow, now almost all of the competitions *are* listed there. They were not a week or so ago, at the time of Dave's original post.

[Little Paul]

Post by Dave
We gets
lots on unverifiable information from people and "friends" who claim to
know "the truth".

...

Post by Dave
Well meaning people still can, and do, confuse the facts.
Memories fail and events get distorted, especially over time.

...

Post by Dave
Psychologists also tell us that many people won't admit they are wrong

...

Post by Dave
Imagine that you angered someone within the IJA leadership, then the next
day the IJA decided that you were to be banned from the next festival,
"for reasons they can't go into publicly"

Thankyou Dave, you brightened up my monday morning by fulfilling my mental
image of you so completely.

-Paul

[TK]

Post by Little Paul

Post by Dave
Imagine that you angered someone within the IJA leadership, then the next
day the IJA decided that you were to be banned from the next festival,
"for reasons they can't go into publicly"

Thankyou Dave, you brightened up my monday morning by fulfilling my mental
image of you so completely.
-Paul

What a marvelous editing job! It is spot on with sentient beings
understanding of the situation.

[Dave]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by a***@gmail.com
Is this true for the welcome show? I figured it was the case for Cascade

of Stars, but that seems like quite a bit for the welcome show.

We can't be positive, which is imho a major problem. The IJA has not
published financial data in years. And even that now-out-of-date data was
scrubbed clean of any real useful information. That said, I am 95% sure
that in recent past years all performers in the opening show DID get free
festival entry. All performers in the Cascade of Stars got free festival
entry + free hotel room + free air fare. In some case, some performers
will be given, in addition to the above, a few thousand dollars "for
expenses". There might be some odd exception(s) that I'm not remembering
that weren't given free entry, but .....

The guy that was kicked out may or may not have been being a jerk (if we
start expelling every juggler that is a jerk, ....). Regardless it seem
clear to me that the IJA was jerking him around or at least handled his
situation poorly. More generally, I continue to think that the IJA (and
other juggling organizers) should not be operating in as much secrecy as
is the current norm. People should not be expelled in secret. The
compensation packages given to performers should be openly listed. The
finances should be publicly published again (and in more detail).

Post by a***@gmail.com
PS - why post this here instead of a more active site like jugglingedge?

Because I don't want to be a hypocrite. A major point of this thread is
that the Internet is becoming less informative and declining.
Rec.Juggling is a newsgroup. Newsgroups may not be as fancy as some
social media sites but they are imho in many ways superior. Newsgroups
are truly open forums. They aren't (and can't be) censored or controlled
by any single person or group. So far, we can still see (and generally
quickly find) posts made 20 years ago. With private forums, all
data/posts will likely disappear if the operator decides to stop running
the website. With social media, posts from even a few days ago get buried
and/or are almost impossible to find or access. The fact that this
discussion doesn't already exist at those other web locations, is in
itself evidence that they are not fulfilling these needs.

How we use the Internet is up to us. There is no reason we can't use the
Internet better to strengthen our juggling community. A premiss I'm
making is that our community was better/stronger when more people used
rec.juggling (instead of the various private options). I think if our
juggling leaders (that can be any of us) started sharing information again
via this open newsgroup, then our juggling community would again grow
stronger. Unfortunately many juggling leaders, like government leaders,
do NOT want their actions known or discussed. So the IJA Board* was able
to kick out of its festival a well known "juggling legend" with little
fear of repercussions or backlash. The only explanation we get is 2nd
hand and is only "they had their reasons, but I can't tell them publicly".
That may have some truth to it, or it may just be a dodge or way to CYA.
Either way it isn't fair to the guy or to all of us, the juggling
community.

--Dave



*I doubt the "IJA Board" actually formally expelled the man from the
festival. More likely Richard Kennison (the other guy in the altercation)
did it almost unilaterally. Richard is a recent past board member and
IJA insider whom many political favors are owed. If he said he "felt his
life threatened" the festival coordinator and board chairman would have
little option (politically) but to support him. Likewise "the board"
(both the new board and the board whom this happened on their last day)
most likely are just going along with the recommendation of the
chair/coordinator (which is just the recommendation of Richard). Unless
this thread causes it, I doubt there will ever be any formal action taken
by the IJA board and I doubt the guy will ever try to go to, or want to go
to, another IJA festival. Which is sad.

[Mike]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by a***@gmail.com
Is this true for the welcome show? I figured it was the case for Cascade

of Stars, but that seems like quite a bit for the welcome show.
We can't be positive, which is imho a major problem. The IJA has not
published financial data in years. And even that now-out-of-date data was
scrubbed clean of any real useful information. That said, I am 95% sure
that in recent past years all performers in the opening show DID get free
festival entry. All performers in the Cascade of Stars got free festival
entry + free hotel room + free air fare. In some case, some performers
will be given, in addition to the above, a few thousand dollars "for
expenses". There might be some odd exception(s) that I'm not remembering
that weren't given free entry, but .....
The guy that was kicked out may or may not have been being a jerk (if we
start expelling every juggler that is a jerk, ....). Regardless it seem
clear to me that the IJA was jerking him around or at least handled his
situation poorly. More generally, I continue to think that the IJA (and
other juggling organizers) should not be operating in as much secrecy as
is the current norm. People should not be expelled in secret. The
compensation packages given to performers should be openly listed. The
finances should be publicly published again (and in more detail).

Post by a***@gmail.com
PS - why post this here instead of a more active site like jugglingedge?

Because I don't want to be a hypocrite. A major point of this thread is
that the Internet is becoming less informative and declining.
Rec.Juggling is a newsgroup. Newsgroups may not be as fancy as some
social media sites but they are imho in many ways superior. Newsgroups
are truly open forums. They aren't (and can't be) censored or controlled
by any single person or group. So far, we can still see (and generally
quickly find) posts made 20 years ago. With private forums, all
data/posts will likely disappear if the operator decides to stop running
the website. With social media, posts from even a few days ago get buried
and/or are almost impossible to find or access. The fact that this
discussion doesn't already exist at those other web locations, is in
itself evidence that they are not fulfilling these needs.
How we use the Internet is up to us. There is no reason we can't use the
Internet better to strengthen our juggling community. A premiss I'm
making is that our community was better/stronger when more people used
rec.juggling (instead of the various private options). I think if our
juggling leaders (that can be any of us) started sharing information again
via this open newsgroup, then our juggling community would again grow
stronger. Unfortunately many juggling leaders, like government leaders,
do NOT want their actions known or discussed. So the IJA Board* was able
to kick out of its festival a well known "juggling legend" with little
fear of repercussions or backlash. The only explanation we get is 2nd
hand and is only "they had their reasons, but I can't tell them publicly".
That may have some truth to it, or it may just be a dodge or way to CYA.
Either way it isn't fair to the guy or to all of us, the juggling
community.
--Dave
*I doubt the "IJA Board" actually formally expelled the man from the
festival. More likely Richard Kennison (the other guy in the altercation)
did it almost unilaterally. Richard is a recent past board member and
IJA insider whom many political favors are owed. If he said he "felt his
life threatened" the festival coordinator and board chairman would have
little option (politically) but to support him. Likewise "the board"
(both the new board and the board whom this happened on their last day)
most likely are just going along with the recommendation of the
chair/coordinator (which is just the recommendation of Richard). Unless
this thread causes it, I doubt there will ever be any formal action taken
by the IJA board and I doubt the guy will ever try to go to, or want to go
to, another IJA festival. Which is sad.
--
----== posted via www.JuggleJunction.org ==----

I thought it was more cut and dry, but your response got me to look into it. It's actually quite a bit more complicated than I'd thought, and fairly ad hoc. The number of comps vary from year to year, and depend on performer, but not directly what they're doing. For some perspective, 5 were given when Matt Hall was the fest director, 15 when it was Kim, and ~40 this year.

I certainly agree that having this kind of thing posted would be nice. There will be some new online infastructure coming into place in ~Oct (learned about this at the IJA business meeting this year) that ought to help matters, though perhaps not yet to the extent we're looking for.

Regarding the guy being kicked out...I'm not ready to judge either party with the information I have. There was lots of information posted on this well known juggling person's FB wall if you'd like to know more. His account of the encounter with Richard is also there.

I'm on the fence about an announcement that someone was removed from the premisis. If I were to do something sufficient for me to be removed from the campus, I think I'd prefer that not be announced. There may also be legal ramifications of announcing something like that.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Post by a***@gmail.com
Because I don't want to be a hypocrite. A major point of this thread is

that the Internet is becoming less informative and declining.

As you say, this is largely about how we use the internet. It took me a total of about 10 minutes to learn about the number of comps given previously, and I was able to ask questions and have a conversation. Social networking seems to lean toward dynamic, disappearing (or at least poorly archived) content. This is certainly different than the old internet, which in my mind was more stonework - it was harder to create, but the things that were created lasted longer.

I'm unsure whether this is better or worse than the rec.juggling era. I do think it's far easier for those of us who live on the internet (and therefore have these online social connections) than it is for more casual browsers or lurkers. IMO, that is a downside that it's harder for what I was call casual users. And a casual user these days is a very different person than a casual user 10 years ago!

[thegoheads]

Post by Dave
There are two classic complaints people make. 1) That things were so much
tougher when they were young, and 2) That things today are getting worse
than the good old days. This is the latter.
The Internet was perhaps the crowning achievement of the last millennium.
With it, some proclaimed the dawn of the Information Age. Indeed the
Internet was designed with the goal of facilitating the spread of
information between people everywhere. And the designed has been proven
to be up to the task.
Today though, idealistic academicians are no longer in control. Today the
Internet is primarily controlled by people who are interested in power and
wealth. And they too have been very successful at turning the Internet
into their tool. The growth of “social media”, while in some ways
increasing connectivity, has also helped limit the flow of information (to
all but the NSA and a few major corporations).
These changes in the Internet have imho had a painful affect on our
juggling world. This year's IJA and EJC conventions just ended, yet
information about them is mostly non-existent. IJA festival had what
should be a major controversy (the board kicked a “juggling legend”
out of it's festival) yet I couldn't find even a peep about it on the
World Wide Web. Who won the Championships? How many people came? Again,
I couldn't find the information anywhere. Back in the 90s, there would
have been much discussion about all these things. Anyone could have
joined in these discussions, or just lurked. That dynamic, sadly, no
longer exists.
This isn't just happening in the juggling world, this is happening all
over. Our leaders, whether the IJA board or the NSA, don't want to
explain their actions. There are very few Snowdens in the world that will
stand up and try to get the word out. And those few are often punished,
and us (the masses) do little to help them. Instead we are allowing
ourselves to be penned up. We talk with our circle of “friends” and
don't realize what is really going on out in the world (or that we are
being controlled).
Of course there is nothing about the Internet that makes it primarily a
tool for leaders and power mongers. The underlying design of the Internet
is still a good one, but how we use it ... is up to us.
--Dave

People are bastards, always have been. Has anything really changed? Now
they just have fancier gadgets to be larger-scale bastards with, that's
all... I do miss the days when the internet made communication easier
rather than more convoluted, but maybe that's just from my perspective.

[Peter Billam]

the Internet was designed with the goal of facilitating the
spread of information between people everywhere. ... Today the
Internet is primarily controlled by people who are interested in
power and wealth. And they too have been very successful at turning
the Internet into their tool. The growth of 'social media', while
in some ways increasing connectivity, has also helped limit the flow
of information (to all but the NSA and a few major corporations).
... This isn't just happening in the juggling world, this is
happening all over.

I want to endorse that. These are the words I use:
It's changed from 'free exchange of information'
into 'surveillance with adverts'.

Regards, Peter